Comment/Question:
We read in the very last verses in Matthew Jesus commanding: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: AND, LO, I AM ... WITH YOU ALWAY, EVEN UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. AMEN!” Earlier in this discussion I mentioned how in studying the Greek meaning for the word “gathered” (see Strong's #4863) I found it not consistent with what is often thought. (Besides the fact that in context this text is about what to do when there is a disagreement between people, and NOT the Lord’s table)! When asked about this, it is often said, “There is a difference between the Lord being ‘in the midst’ collectively, and Him being there individually.” I would appreciate getting FROM SCRIPTURE where that comes from!
Answer:
Sometimes certain phrases are used so frequently in our Bible readings that we grow accustomed to hearing them, and we never stop to consider what they mean. Many of these phrases are not Scripture, but they are Scriptural. The “ground of gathering” would be an example. Scripture doesn’t use that exact phrase, but it doesn’t mean that it’s unscriptural. “Ground,” used in this sense, simply means the foundation principle or principles of something. If someone said, “the ground of marriage,” we probably wouldn’t have a difficulty understanding what was meant. The person is obviously referring to the foundation principle(s) on which marriage is based. It’s just the same when it comes to the truth of the assembly. When we speak of “the ground of gathering,” we are referring to what constitutes the foundation principles of Christians being gathered together in assembly for worship, ministry, and administrative actions.
Two Ways the Lord is With His People—“Individually” and “Collectively”
As to the question about the Lord's presence being with His people, there are two different ways in which Scripture speaks of it. Brethren have used two terms—which are not found in Scripture but are Scriptural—to distinguish these two ways. There is the Lord’s presence “individually” and the Lord’s presence “collectively.”
Firstly, the Lord’s presence is with each one of His redeemed people, as individuals. Perhaps we could call this "personally." He is with believers, in this sense, to help them and to protect and comfort them, and for communion with them. The Lord said, “Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world” (Matt. 28:2020Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:20)). He also said, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee” (Heb. 13:55Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Hebrews 13:5)). Even if we don’t sense it, He is still there with us. For example, Luke said, “Jesus Himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know Him” (Luke 24:15-1615And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. 16But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. (Luke 24:15‑16)). It simply cannot be denied that wherever the Lord’s people go, He is there with them. “Whither shall I go from Thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there: if I make my bed in hell [sheol], behold, Thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; even there shall Thy hand lead me, and Thy right hand shall hold me” (Psa. 139:7-107Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. (Psalm 139:7‑10)).
Since the Lord is with us wherever we go as individual believers, if a group of individual believers were to convene in some place for some purpose (religious or secular), the Lord would be there too. Although there may be a group of Christians gathered together in such a situation, this is not what is meant when brethren speak of the Lord’s presence being with His people “collectively,” as in Matthew 18:2020For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20) and 1 Corinthians 5:44In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Corinthians 5:4).
The second way Scripture speaks of the Lord’s presence with His people is in the sense of sanctioning, authorizing, or approving them in some way. This is the sense in which His presence is spoken of in Matthew 18:2020For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20) and 1 Corinthians 5:44In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Corinthians 5:4). He is there in their midst to sanction the ground upon which He has gathered Christians together, and to thus authorize their administrative actions of binding and loosing.
The Lord's presence being “in the midst,” as in Matthew 18:2020For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20), simply cannot be said of all Christian groups. He does not sanction with His presence the ground on which every Christian group meets for worship and ministry. If He were to do so, He would be sanctioning the divided state of the Christian testimony—for these groups meet separately from one another. The Lord would then be responsible for the sad divisions in the public testimony of the Church! This, of course, is something that He would not do, for it would deny the fact that there is a center of gathering. It would be a practical denial of what the Lord Himself prayed for in regard to believers on earth—that we would all be "one" in thought, aim, and purpose (John 17:1111And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (John 17:11)), and in testimony (John 17:20-2120Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:20‑21)). The New Testament is replete with texts that tell us that God desires Christians to move together without divisions.
Moreover, if the Lord were “in the midst” of the denominational churches of Christendom, in this sense, then He is condoning and authorizing the unscriptural order on which those churches function. We refer to the clerical order that can be found in almost every place where Christians meet—the appointing of a clergyman (a so-called Pastor or Minister) to lead the meetings in worship and ministry. J. N. Darby said that it is "dispensationally a sin against the Holy Spirit," because in practice it denies the headship of Christ and the presidency of the Holy Spirit. It also interferes with the true priesthood of believers and the free exercise of gifts in ministry in the meetings (1 Cor. 12-14). Also, these places have orchestras and choirs, etc., that have been borrowed from the camp of Judaism, from which we are told to leave (Heb. 13:1313Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. (Hebrews 13:13)). There are also many other unscriptural things connected with the ecclesiological order in those places.
Since this is the case, how could the Lord possibly sanction an order of things that is clearly contrary to His Word? Mr. Potter said, “Suppose the Lord gave His presence now to the different denominations, what would He be doing? He would be sanctioning what is contrary to Him. He can’t do that.” Mr. Potter also said, “You don’t mean to imply that the Lord is not in the midst of any others in the same sense? Decidedly He is not.” Mr. Darby said that if the Lord were in the midst of the various Christians fellowships according to Matthew 18:2020For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20), then “it would be sin in me not to go there.”
Furthermore, how could the Lord be in the midst of the brethren gathered to His name on Scriptural ground, sanctioning that position, and at the same time, be in the midst of the denominational churches sanctioning those positions? The ground the brethren gathered to the Lord's name take in separation from the churches is that of a "practical protest" (W. Potter) against the unscripturalness of denominational order. If the Lord were in the midst of both, sanctioning both, then He would be taking a position of against Himself! This shows how that misunderstanding Matthew 18:2020For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20) can lead to confusion.
Matthew 18:2020For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20) has to do with the assembly acting in its administrative capacity in binding and loosing disciplinary actions. The authority the assembly has for such actions comes from the Lord Himself being there in the midst sanctioning the very ground on which the assembly stands ecclesiologically. (This does not mean that the Lord’s presence in the midst sanctions their state—for it may be terribly low—but the ground on which they meet.) Perhaps a better word to use to indicate this collective aspect of the Lord’s presence would be, “corporate.” He is there “in the midst” corporately. “Corporate” comes from the Latin word “corporatum,” and refers to people being formed into a legislative body for some specific purpose. In this case, it is for worship, ministry, and the authorizing of administrative decisions.
Two Ways the Lord is “in the Midst”
Hence, if someone were to ask us whether we believed that the Lord was in the midst of the various Christian groups in Christendom, or that He was only in the midst of one, we would have to say that that it depended on which aspect it was. If it were in the aspect presented in Revelation 2-3, we would say that He is in the midst of all such Christian groups because they are all part of the public profession of Christianity. But, if it were in the sense of Matthew 18:20, we would say that He is not.
To summarize our remarks regarding the two aspects of the Lord’s presence, we could say that since the Lord is with Christians individually or personally, if a group of individual Christians were to get together in a church building, then He would be there with them too. But He would not be in their midst in the sense of Matthew 18:20. Some, however, have a difficulty with this. They say, “How can He be there in the midst, and yet not be there in the midst?” They conclude that it is pure nonsense. But the simple answer is that Scripture speaks of the Lord’s presence in two different ways. And, as discerning Christians, we are to “approve the things that are excellent [differ]” (Phil. 1:1010That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; (Philippians 1:10)).
Paul speaks of this other sense in which the Lord is "with" His people near the end of his epistle to the Thessalonians. He said to them, "The Lord be with you all" (2 Thess. 3:1616Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all. (2 Thessalonians 3:16)). Why would he say that when he knew that the Lord was always with His people? Obviously, he was speaking of it in a different sense. He was referring to the Lord's giving His support and approval to their testimony and service in that region. Similarly, we might pray that the Lord would be with a brother in his preaching. We mean that the Lord would identify Himself with the brother in his preaching, and thus bless it. Compare 1 Chronicles 15:22Then David said, None ought to carry the ark of God but the Levites: for them hath the Lord chosen to carry the ark of God, and to minister unto him for ever. (1 Chronicles 15:2).
The Lord Was Not With the Ten Northern Tribes
There is a type in the Old Testament that we believe helps us to understand these two aspects. When Jeroboam separated the ten tribes from God’s center in Jerusalem in a sad division, he set up two alternate centers for the departed tribes to worship in—one at Bethel and another in Dan (1 Kings 11-12). He erected two new altars in these places in separation from the “one altar” at Jerusalem (Deut. 12:2727And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the Lord thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the Lord thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh. (Deuteronomy 12:27); 2 Chron. 32:1212Hath not the same Hezekiah taken away his high places and his altars, and commanded Judah and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall worship before one altar, and burn incense upon it? (2 Chronicles 32:12)). However, it is significant that the Shekinah glory cloud, which is the visible symbol of the Lord’s presence (Ex. 13:21-22; 16:10; 40:34-3821And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: 22He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people. (Exodus 13:21‑22)
10And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud. (Exodus 16:10)
34Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. 35And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. 36And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went onward in all their journeys: 37But if the cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was taken up. 38For the cloud of the Lord was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys. (Exodus 40:34‑38); Lev. 16:22And the Lord said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat. (Leviticus 16:2); Num. 11:25; 14:1025And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease. (Numbers 11:25)
10But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the Lord appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel. (Numbers 14:10)), did not go and rest on those new places, but remained in Jerusalem at the temple (2 Chron. 5:13-1413It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord; 14So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God. (2 Chronicles 5:13‑14)). It stayed there until the people were carried away into captivity many years later (Ezek. 8:3-4; 9:3; 10:4, 18; 11:23; 3:233And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. 4And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain. (Ezekiel 8:3‑4)
3And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; (Ezekiel 9:3)
4Then the glory of the Lord went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the Lord's glory. (Ezekiel 10:4)
18Then the glory of the Lord departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims. (Ezekiel 10:18)
23And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which is on the east side of the city. (Ezekiel 11:23)
23Then I arose, and went forth into the plain: and, behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, as the glory which I saw by the river of Chebar: and I fell on my face. (Ezekiel 3:23)). This clearly indicates that the Lord did not own (sanction) those divergent places with His presence.
Some years later, as the divided state in Israel continued, Amaziah, the king of Judah, hired the army of Israel (the ten tribes) to go with them to war. But a prophet came to him and said, “O king, let not the army of Israel go with thee; for the LORD is not with Israel” (2 Chron. 25:77But there came a man of God to him, saying, O king, let not the army of Israel go with thee; for the Lord is not with Israel, to wit, with all the children of Ephraim. (2 Chronicles 25:7)). The Lord was “not with” Israel in the sense of sanctioning their divided position, and thus, it would not be for blessing. This shows that the passage of time didn’t change the fact that the ten northern tribes were on a wrong ground having divided off from the divine center in Jerusalem.
Though that was the case, it is plain to see that the Lord loved the departed ten tribes and helped them—even the wicked king Ahab (1 Kings 20). He also sent prophets to minister to them—i.e. Elijah and Elisha. This shows that, in another sense, the Lord hadn’t given them up. So, in one sense, the Lord was not with Israel, but in another sense, He was. This is not a contradiction; it is just two different things.
There are, then, two different ways to look at the Lord’s presence in Christianity. Firstly, He is “in the midst” of all Christian groups, as Revelation 2-3 indicates, assessing the state of things as a Judge. He is there because He is with all Christians wherever they are (Matt. 28:2020Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:20); Heb. 13:55Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Hebrews 13:5)). Secondly, the Lord is also “in the midst” of those whom the Spirit of God has gathered around Himself according to Matthew 18:2020For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20). He is there in this sense to sanction the ground upon which they have been gathered and to authorize their administrative actions. This is not difficult to understand if we want to know the truth.
The Presence of Holy Spirit in Two Ways—“In” and “With” Christians
The Lord’s presence with His people is not to be confused with the presence of the Holy Spirit. There are also two ways in which the Spirit of God is present with us: He dwells in every Christian, and He dwells in the professing house of God with Christians. The Lord first indicated this in John 14:1717Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:17). He said, “He [the Holy Spirit] dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.” When the Spirit of God came and formed the Church on the day of Pentecost, this is exactly what happened—He “filled all the house where they were sitting,” and He also “sat upon each of them and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:2-42And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:2‑4)). See also 1 Corinthians 3:1616Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (1 Corinthians 3:16) and 1 Corinthians 6:1919What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? (1 Corinthians 6:19). This second aspect explains how an unbeliever could come in among Christians and partake of the outward blessings and privileges that the Holy Spirit has brought to us, without ever being saved and indwelt by Him (Heb. 6:44For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (Hebrews 6:4)).
The following comment is from “Help and Food.” “This presence [of the Lord in the midst] must be distinguished from the presence of the Holy Spirit in the saints or in the assembly as the house of God at large. The Holy Spirit is always in the saints and in the assembly of God at large unconditionally, as to any principle of gathering whatever; and His presence therefore does not sanction the gathering as such. This should be as plain as it is important, for it shows how God can work in His grace amid all the confusion of Christendom, without sanctioning the discordant and sectarian principles which prevail in the least. Christ’s presence in the midst, on the other hand, is sanction (not, of course of the state of the assembly).”
Since the Holy Spirit is in Christians, and also among Christians, if they were to meet in a church building the Spirit would be there with them. Though He may be there, He will be grieved because of the clerical principles in practice there, which displace His presidency in leading and guiding the proceedings. Though He may be blocked and hindered to some degree, He will work where and when He can. Thus, souls are saved and instructed in the Scriptures in these places. But the fact that the Spirit of God is present in the various church organizations has nothing to do with the Lord being in the midst to sanction the ground that those man-made sects are on.
Summary:
While the words “individually” and “collectively” in connection with the Lord’s presence are not found in Scripture, the truth that they are intended to convey is. Unfortunately, some have stumbled over the meaning of what brethren have called, the Lord’s presence “collectively.” Therefore, we have suggested the word “corporately,” to signify His presence in the midst of those He has gathered to sanction the ground upon which they are on. It is completely different from the Lord being with individual believers.